Art Camacho is no stranger to the action community having directed fan favourites like Recoil starring Gary Daniels, Redemption, Soft Target, and many more. Art’s latest movie Ruthless stars Dermot Mulroney as a gym coach who after his teenage daughter was murdered, takes matters into his own hands by going after the men who kidnap his student for their human trafficking operation.
Art stopped by to chat with us about the movie.
First of all, congratulations on Ruthless, which I think is one of your best films.
Thank you, so much. That means a lot coming from you, brother.
What made you want to direct and sign on to the project initially?
The genesis was, I had the script for about four years; I had like four or five scripts and in the business, you have so many projects and at one point, I was coming close to getting it going; it didn’t go, so I just put it on the shelf. A producer asked me “hey, do you have any scripts? I gave him 4 scripts and Ruthless was the one. He said, “Look, I’ll do it. We have to find the right cast”. I said “absolutely” and he said “I want some changes”, so I said, “Yeah, absolutely as long as we keep the core”. My thing was the character has to be what it turned out to be – very, very, very driven. That was it, brother and it took a while to get off the ground because we sent it out to different actors. Some were right, some weren’t right. Some liked it, some didn’t. It was trying to find the right piece and it wasn’t until Dermot came onto the project that it just clicked. Like I told you, as a director, I was always going to direct it; I knew what I was doing here. I knew the vision in my head, but when I met Dermot, it was like, that’s my brother. That’s it. That’s Harry, the character.
He was so perfectly cast; it’s hard to picture anybody else that could play the role because he brings a world weariness to him, where he’s not a 100% nice guy; he’s a little sexist earlier on, but that is the arc he is going to go through. Having somebody like Van Damme or Schwarzenegger wouldn’t be the right choice. The character is not like a big action guy, but just a normal guy with some training. I thought that’s what really made him such a great character.
Oh, thank you and you are so correct, because in fact, I did a film afterwards and I’ll tell you a little about it later, but that film, I didn’t want to go that route. Like you said the Van Damme or Arnold. It wasn’t the film I wanted to make. When we brought Dermot to the table the producer said “hey, let’s meet him”; he’s known for rom coms and lighter fare, but Dermot and I became brothers. I mean he jumped at the chance; he was so excited because it was his first full on, proper action role; he played this kind of dark character and oh my god, I can’t tell you this guy on the set, we were like one mind. We clicked so much. It was amazing working with him.
What was the process for working with him to develop Harry as a character?
A lot of it was taking meetings, talking and just getting to know each other as human beings. Secondly, the physicality; he came with some boxing training and we got into the wrestling and grappling stuff like that. In the scenes where you see the wrestling we went to a high school, got a real wrestling coach with real wrestlers there. During that Jacob Brestler helped me with some of the Krav Maga, some arm breaking and stuff like that. For the physicality Dermot was a natural fit for the character. He really understood the essence of the character and all he’s going through. So, it was very, I wouldn’t say easy, but it was very fluid working together in the characters and the acting.
How has your approach to creating fight scenes changed over the over the years?
When Van Damme came on that’s when I started in that era with the kickboxing. Then there was Steven Seagal with the aikido and obviously Bruce Lee before that with his kung fu, exciting style. John Wick is phenomenal with this stuff and for me; it’s still the same approach I had 30 years ago in the sense that it has to be organic to me. I want to make it as organic as I can to the story, especially when I get to direct these films. I want to make it organic. You touched on something; had it been one of our action star friends, it would have been a different movie; it wouldn’t have been as believable. Because the average guy cannot kick like Van Damme, the average guy cannot do those techniques and that’s what I wanted Harry, the character to be – just an average guy who yes, has some set of skills, but he’s not this super bravado, superhero shredded, character. That’s what I’ve always tried to achieve is the organic-ness that come out of the fight scenes and that’s my approach now. But the thing is, you touched on something too, because some of my friends who again, have been around for a long time. They stay doing the same techniques; I like to grow. The stuff I do today won’t be the same stuff I’m doing 30 years ago when I started because not only because I’m trying to copy trends, I don’t follow trends. I just follow sensibilities, sensibilities change, and there’s a time and a place for kicking, a time in place for punching, and Ruthless in particular it wasn’t that kind of film. I’m so excited because this is the direction I really want to take going forward, meaning making films that are organic that have action in them, but they’re more character driven or a story piece.
Sometimes you can be watching an action or martial arts film where the fighting looks more like a dance with overly choreographed fight scenes, and this looked very real. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many fingers broken in one movie…
(laughs) I think we were counting.
Take a shot anytime someone’s fingers are broken (laughs). Because he’s not this huge Schwarzenegger type guy, his opponents can underestimate him at first, so then he immediately has the advantage. I think that makes for a more interesting fight scene…
Thank you. As a matter of fact, the first fight and I set the tone in the first fight because he didn’t want to fight this guy; for those of you who have seen the movie. Basically, he’s in a theater, some guy’s harassing this girl. He tells him to stop, he walks out minding his own business, and this guy starts a fight with him. He’s very reluctant. I put myself in his shoes; I would not want to fight and I will try to talk my way out of it. If push came to shove, then you have to do something. That’s what I try to do throughout until he becomes just enraged. He has go on this mission, whatever it is, whatever you want to call it, to go save this individual.
Do you tend to allow changes to the script while filming or do you prefer just to stick stringently to it?
In that way, I think there’s only one film where I stuck close to the script. Whereas Dermot brought so much to the table. Unfortunately, as a director, I haven’t had a movie that I can say, “this is the Bible”; I haven’t had a Tarantino-type script but I want to bring it alive, because we usually have pretty good scripts to start off with and then the actors bring their own essence to it and the scenes develop. When I’m rehearsing with the actors, all of a sudden, you feel what’s working, what isn’t working, and good actors, really phenomenal actors, like Dermot, they bring so much to little nuances, that one word can eliminate three or four lines of dialogue. So, absolutely, I like a lot of not improvisation, per se, but not sticking to the script 100%. I mean, this makes scenes alive.
Following on from that, generally, what do you look for in a script for you to be interested in a project?
I hate to say this, but I hate reading scripts. I hate it. Because I got like 10 scripts I gotta read right now (laughs). But what I normally do, if I’m hooked in the first 5 to 10 pages, that’s the big thing for me, not even action. People think because I come from the action world that action turns me on. Really, it’s great, but story and characters drive me. I did this film in Russia in 2019 called Wild League and that one, it had more good and bad. Good that it had a lot of European type sensibilities, bad because the producers stuck too much to that, so it didn’t get to do good in the Western markets. So, beautiful movie, a great movie, one of my favorite movies. But the first 10 pages were epic, I swear to you, it was a period piece set at the turn of the century but it was epic and it drew me so much. It was like a love story wrapped in the world of soccer wrapped into international conflict. That’s what drives me, if I can get hooked with the characters or the setting in the first 10 pages then that’s it. Again, action is secondary to that; it’s going back to character and story.
This movie almost has a horror element as well, because the world can be a very scary place, particularly for young women. I thought that this really is almost like a warning to women, just to be very careful out there. Was it important for you for the story to be almost like a warning?
It absolutely was, it absolutely was, but I didn’t want to exploit that. Put the message out there. Absolutely. The thing is that was equally important is that one person can make a difference. You can make it; you’re making a difference right now, by what you’re doing. We’re all making a difference and that was the message Yes, the world is a scary place, but we’re not helpless. That’s what I wanted to stress more than anything and that’s what I loved about Harry. Again, he’s not the super action hero; he was just you and me and pushed to the brink.
Yeah, he could have just turned a blind eye, like so many people do. But that’s what makes him a hero is that he didn’t turn a blind eye.
And that was so exciting for me, because it came across that way, but I give all the credit to Dermot because he brought that out in the character; he really did. In the hands of a lesser actor or an actor that’s not right for the part, it would have come out superficial. Even the small role that Jeff Fahey played. I love Jeff Fahey. The funny thing about Jeff is that you can be having a serious conversation or even a light conversation with him and then when they when they say, “okay, cameras rolling” BOOM! He’s the character (laughs).
I’ve been a fan of his for about 30 years; I interviewed him for the first time a couple of months ago, and he was just so cool.
You and me both and he’s the nicest guy. I mean, when you talk to people through interviews on Zoom and stuff, you get one side of them, but when you’re working with them, you get another side and it was great. He was very professional, very prepared. When he was working with Dermot in a couple of the scenes in the movie, it was like watching two of the top heavyweight champions of the world going against each other. It was really cool watching that dynamic of two really strong actors. That’s a huge reward about what I do.
What would you like audiences to take away from the film and how do you want it to resonate with them?
I just want audiences to feel empowered more than anything, be aware and feel empowered, feel good. I was talking to a friend of mine that is also filmmaker. One thing that’s important to me, whether you like my films or not, I like good to always come out on top, maybe not win every battle, but at least win the war. I want somebody to walk away with feeling empowered. Real life is bad, there are a lot of bad people out there, but we can again make a difference. We don’t have to be the superhero, multi-blackbelt, Grandmaster, or the sniper or whatever. I gotta confess to you, in one of the early drafts, he was this ex this and ex that and military and then once we started evolving the character, it was like, no, because then it’s been there done that. That’s what turned him into a high school coach, but definitely the empowerment to me, it’s always the empowerment. Even the lead girl, Katya. I wanted her to be empowered. She was a tough little girl. She took a lot. It’s so funny. I’ve had so many comments from people who know people who are in that dynamic of a family, that Hispanic family with a stepfather, the daughter and abuse. I came from that kind of background; my background of being Hispanic, poor and growing up, all that stuff. Those are the dynamics I grew up with, so that resonates. But just because you start there doesn’t mean you have to end there.
You sent me a copy a few years ago of your book A Filmmakers Journey, which I thought was fantastic. Do you have any plans to do another book anytime soon?
Surprisingly, we’re working on the update as a second edition because so much has happened since that book. I gotta tell you, brother my life can be rough like all of us, trust me; I have to wake up, pay bills, I have to do everything but I can’t tell you how blessed I am. Number one to be sitting here with you because you’re one of my idols. I really, really admire you and what you do.
Thank you. The feeling’s mutual. You’ve been there since the very start. I remember you sent an email when I first started this website. I appreciate all your support as well over the years.
Thank you. Even the idea of the initial book, it was biographical to the point where I just wanted to put the key points that were turning points in my life. What led me to on this journey. Since that book came out about five years ago, I think, but so much has happened from meeting my idols and working. I mean, this whole trip to Russia, I’m directing a Russian film in the Russian language – what is this? (laughs) A Mexican boy from the barrio; what the hell are we doing here? (laughs) And, and then even getting my own talk show. How crazy is that?
Yeah, it was amazing.
I think we manifest our destinies, but during the heart of COVID that’s when I got the call from El Rey. They said “we want to do a show”. Okay, so first I thought okay, I’ll direct, I’ll write, choreograph, whatever. “We want you to host it” and I was like “WHAT?” and finally Michael Matsuda who was my partner on the show talked me into it. Then he says, let’s give this a name, I say, “Okay. Kung Fu this” or “Martial Arts that“ and, and he goes, “no, no a personal name”. So, then I had another partner who said “why don’t you call it The Camacho Experiment?”
Whatever your faith is. I believe that I’m just somebody’s crazy experiment in this world (laughs) so I said, “Done”. The book I’m doing, there’s probably about several more chapters I’m adding to it right now. One thing that I found, brother is that when I used to give these talks, when I go to high schools, or martial arts tournaments, or martial arts events, people look at people in the film industry and think, “wow, cool, I can never do that” and it’s like no, you can do that. Everybody can. I tell them the truth of where I came from and how I started and everything else, and their jaws dropped because I couldn’t get a girlfriend to save my life. I couldn’t get a job to say my life. I couldn’t do martial arts worth a darn and yet the perseverance and the passion was everything.
You were mentioning that you’ve got some other projects in the works; can you tell us about them?
Yes, we’re wrapping up a film called The Wrecker which is a fun film; it has a lot of influences from Knight Rider, the car Knight Rider and a little bit of Fast and Furious thrown in there. Again, it’s a fun film. It was wonderful working with Harvey Keitel, Tyrese, Mena Suvari, Danny Trejo and Chad Michael Collins, who’s from the Sniper films.
Oh, Chad is great.
I love that guy. About a month ago I had lunch with him. Great guy, I love him to death. Harvey was telling me “Art, call my agent, in fact don’t call my agent, call me, personally. Let’s do another film together”. That was another fun film to do. I gotta tell you this, brother every time I’m directing a film, I set out saying “I’m just going to direct. I got stunt coordinators. I got five choreographers. I’m just gonna sit in the director’s chair and yell “action”.” That only lasts five minutes (laughs). I get down there and I’m like “you punch like this” (laughs). I can’t help myself, man. I get in there and the first time some of these actors were shocked. Actually, Dermot made a comment about that, because he was used to that working with directors, stunt coordinators, and all that stuff. When he saw me, and he’s like, “Art, I’ve never worked with a director like you. You’re out there fighting and you’re punching, you’re showing the stunt guys how to fight”. It’s just fun. It’s just a passion.
Then I have two other projects after that, and a possible, I can’t name the name, but it’s not Marvel or DC. It’s another company, but it’s a superhero film that I might be working on. We’re developing it right now and it’s looking pretty good. So yeah, I’m excited about that.
Recently I was watching Inferno, otherwise known as Operation Cobra with Don Wilson and I was reading how Evan Lurie was set to be the film’s action choreographer, but then he got heatstroke and then you took over. Is that true?
It was crazy. I gotta tell you, Don did the film and he says, “they’re going to hire him and Evan is going to be the co-star”. Okay, great. Fourth of July, I’m at home, cooking with the family. I get a call from Don. I was like “Man, that was a quick shoot, you just left two weeks ago”. He says “I need you to come to India”. I go “What do you mean, India? What are you talking about?” I thought he was joking. He was like “no, no, no, we have problems. Evan is sick. I need you here”. Almost two weeks later I was in India. Just went out there and took over the film. I mean, it was the weirdest thing. I didn’t ask “how much?” or whatever and “then where am I staying?” I just said, “Okay, Don needs me. I’m there” and I went up there.
Fred Olen Ray’s a wonderful director, and I love him to death but I think on all his movies, whether they’re stunt coordinators, or whatever, he’s the one the yells “action” and “cut”. I learned so much from him and I’m so used to doing that. The first couple of times, I would look out because I’m setting up the action and call out “action” and I’d get the look from Fred. It’s like “oops, sorry”. So, I keep to myself and then by the end of the shoot he is like “Art, you call it!” (laughs) We had so much fun.
A quick story from the crew down there. It was so amazing, because the first day I get there, literally, I go from the hotel with jetlag because you know, the time difference now. Then I said, “At least I’m going to have a day or so to recover”. No, literally, put your stuff down and go to the set. There’s like 10 Indian stuntmen, and we’re supposed to work out a sequence literally right there, right off the plane, and go to set. These are some of the nicest guys that I ever worked with, and I’m just talking. I’m assuming everybody understands and just going to do what I tell them. I say, “Okay, you’re gonna punch here”. I give instructions to all of them and nobody moves. They’re just standing there with their heads nodding and I’m like, “okay, just in case you guys didn’t understand me. You do this. You do that”. I keep telling them again, what to do. Nobody’s moving. They’re just nodding. I’m getting pissed at this point. I thought they were telling me no. I went up to a guy and I was gonna grab him by the shirt. I go “Do you understand?” The assistant pulls me aside and says “no, no, Art they really look up to you so much. They respect you a lot. They wanted you to give them permission to go ahead and do it. That’s what they’re waiting for”. Oh my God! I’m like “I’m so sorry” (laughs). I was hugging them. My god, these guys. I mean, what they do is amazing. Just the heart and the passion.
Here’s the thing, you can tell that these guys kept the budget; the producers kind of gypped us out on production. Because I tell you man, we were just making stuff up; there’s some shots were Don’s being shot at, but we had no kind of guns. Fred made slingshots out of trees and tire rubber (laughs). So we’re firing slingshots at Don from behind the camera creating all these dust hits. It was fun, but that was a true story. I don’t know what happened with sickness or not, but I just knew Don needed me to be there. Then I worked with him and Evan, the whole crew and it was amazing. It was amazing and here’s the thing everybody got sick except the two Hispanics (laughs).
Just made of stronger stuff (laughs).
Tequila works, man. I’m telling you (laughs).
Thank you so much for taking the time to chat and hopefully we can chat again soon for The Wrecker.
Thanks so much, brother. And again, I gotta tell you, It means a lot. I really admire and respect you so much, brother.
